TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Brent Harding: Welcome to another episode of our Firefighter Support Podcast. We're here today with two pretty special guests, some more special than others. I'm just kidding. But we have Jeff Denning and Chief Josh Francis. And we'll get into some intros in a minute, but... I want to start off with a quick story about Josh, Chief Francis.

Because I started my first EMT class back in 2007, back when Debbie was in charge. Oh man. And I just remember day one, Josh and John Fulmer come walking in. And I was just like, and Josh is super built and just looks like the epitome of what, you know, like a firefighter should look like and then right out of the gate, they share this story about how some car ended up upside down in the river and Josh went in after him and like dove under and got in the water and.

I was just like, totally starstruck, and from that moment forward, I knew I wanted to be exactly like Josh Francis.

[00:00:51] Josh Francis: And then you met me for real, and decided that it's not

[00:00:54] Brent Harding: worth it. Every interaction just reaffirms to

be, to be like him. So, anyway, but that was a long time ago, but man, that has stuck with me forever. And that was back with the grey EMT shirts. These hands saved me. Oh gosh, that's

[00:01:09] Josh Francis: right, yes. You know, it's amazing how someone will come to you and say, Hey. Do you remember this? And it's, you don't remember that moment, but they remember it for a long time.

So those are kind of, I love to hear those stories. So

[00:01:19] Brent Harding: thank you. Well, you made a great first impression. So here I am. And here we are together on the couch. So, so we'll circle back to Chief Francis. But Jeff, tell us a little bit about you, your background and kind of. I know it's lengthy and you got quite the rapport.

That's just

[00:01:32] Jeff Denning: because I have ADD and then I jump and do a lot of different things. You too? Yeah, you know, it's pretty common. Let's see right now I'm the chair for the state's Utah Critical Incident Stress Management team. So we're helping out with debriefings all over state. I've been on the executive board there for a long time and that's been good.

I'm, I also retired a couple years ago from Salt Lake City Police Department. And doing mental health counseling now. That's kind of the short version. Military veteran and some other stuff. But, yeah. Thank you for your service. You know, wait a minute. Let's just have a talk about that really fast.

[00:02:02] Josh Francis: Hey, I have a brother and sister that served too.

I know the sacrifice that's made for that. So, it's a heck of a sacrifice.

[00:02:07] Jeff Denning: It really is. And I think of my poor wife stuck at home with the kids. Yeah.

[00:02:11] Josh Francis: So, when I say thank you, I mean it from the

[00:02:12] Jeff Denning: bottom of my heart. Yeah, I appreciate it. I don't know about you though, but when people say that to you, because...

You know, whether you're a veteran or a first responder and they come up and say, Hey, thanks for your service. They're like, what do you say? I don't know. We need to come up with a different phrase. You're right. And

[00:02:25] Josh Francis: cause it makes me feel odd. The funny thing about it is I'm, I look at it like I don't know what to say, but then I'm like, you know what?

Thank you for allowing me to do this because this has been an awesome career for me. So yeah,

[00:02:36] Brent Harding: I learned my answer from you as well. I've heard you say a couple times when people say that, it's like, you know what, thank you so much for the port, or support, I really love my job. Like, I love what I

[00:02:45] Jeff Denning: do.

that's what happens with firefighters, but you know, as a cop, me, it didn't happen. It was more like, hey, waving with a one finger, spit on you, stuff like

[00:02:52] Josh Francis: that. It's a different experience then, but as a soldier... You know, and retired at that, it's it means something. So, yeah, I know the sacrifice as far as what my family made.

Yeah.

[00:03:02] Brent Harding: Well, I think we need to, we need a few more details. You left out quite a bit, like author in a couple

[00:03:06] Jeff Denning: of books. Oh,

[00:03:07] Brent Harding: okay. Let's see. Talk about your deployments and you've been involved in some pretty, and then some security for high profile.

[00:03:13] Jeff Denning: Oh, did I even tell you that? Are you searching the internet or something?

Let's see. So yeah, I the book actually, so after Iraq I I started a blog, I turned it into a book. I don't do anything with a blog. I haven't. It's called Warrior SOS. And I I work with a handful of guys from the Joint Special Operations community. So guys from Delta Force. And not that I wasn't in that organization, but I just happen to know a lot of good dudes from a lot of different organizations.

So, the first guy to go public with his post traumatic stress from the unit, Delta Force, did so in my book. And actually three guys from the unit wrote in my book. So, which is kind of different. Anyway, every chapter is a different story, and there's a handful of guys who are also police officers. You know, Navy SEAL and, you know, some other stuff, just telling about their story.

So it was very cathartic for me to interview them and then, you know, put, publish that. Because I thought, in fact, one of my buddies from from the unit said, you know, I said, Hey, I feel I shouldn't be feeling the way I'm feeling because my experiences were so much less than yours And that's one of the bad things we do we tend to Compare yeah, I compare it's bad.

It's yeah when we compare It's awful. Anyway, I remember him saying, Jeff, don't ever say that. Your experiences are hard. And I'm like, I still didn't believe it. But anyway, so that's that's that I did some stuff with the state department and, us government customers. What I can say is classified contract and Yeah, I did some stuff with air marshals and, you know, just some stuff here and there.

It makes it

[00:04:41] Brent Harding: sound so nonchalant, you know, but I think that's pretty awesome. Some experiences we were talking about it on shift the other day is just we looked up like, you know, everybody aspires to like. Have tons of money or whatever. And so we looked up how many millionaires there were in the U.

S. There's like 27 million millionaires in the U. S. But there's only 364, 000 full time firefighters and so we're just like it's pretty cool that you have a job that really it's a pretty small Group and no one can buy their way into this job like no, you know And so anyway, it's but to have some of those experiences It doesn't matter who you are or what kind of power you have.

Like some of these jobs, you have to go through a specific channel to get there. Most people just don't have what it takes, right? Yeah. So I think that's pretty neat. Tell us a little bit more about, you know, for a topic that's usually pretty taboo. You know, no one wants to talk about it. No one wants to address it head on.

You know, it's usually something we all avoid. How come you chose to, you know, jump in with both feet and kind of start addressing and books and blogs and, you know, all the things to really kind of get some information out there. And then of course go the full.

[00:05:48] Jeff Denning: Yeah, well, let me first just kind of point out, so I now as far as therapy goes and teaching peer support and doing stuff like that, which I was a peer support supervisor in Salt Lake City before retiring there, and a negotiator and a SWAT guy and have, so I have a lot of that background.

And I work with an organization called First Responders First. It's not the California Rehab one. That's a different one. It's the Utah based First Responders First. And we just work with first responders and their family members and have contracts with different agencies. But I think, you know, a lot of times I just wanted to kind of figure out, I've always been fascinated by psychology, especially in the 90s when I first started.

first took a crisis negotiation course from the FBI. I just fascinated by how people work and dealing with suspects and just human beings. And I think you know, even before going over to Iraq, I was doing some stuff with the State Department in Israel. We were escorting us diplomats into the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and just talking about the whole mindset it takes to do a job.

Some kind of first responder type job, dealing with life and death. And so the mindset for years and years, especially from a tactical point of view, Oh, I eat that stuff up. You know, everything from reading Dave Grossman to whoever else, and just trying to comprehend and understand how it is that we can do what we do, and do it so much differently than the normal population, kind of like you pointed out.

You know, sure it'd be nice if we were millionaires, but... We're not, if there's 27, whatever, how many is it? 27 million. 27 million, millionaires. That's crazy. That's a lot. It's like anybody can do that. I know, right? I need to. Anyway yeah we're first responders are a really small and unique breed.

So trying to tap in to say, okay. How do we operate the way we operate and how do we think the way we think? I don't know. It's just unique. It's different. And so anyway fast forward a little bit. You know, I was I think it was about I don't know, 15 years or so I had done a lot of stuff in law enforcement, I was at Dallas Police Department before 9 11 changed everything and then that changed the course of my career, where I started doing stuff with the government and then air marshals and then eventually led me out here to Salt Lake City where I retired, but, yeah, I don't know.

ADD. Ha.

[00:07:57] Brent Harding: Ah, yeah. Well, I think we all suffer from that a little bit, right? Chief, why don't you tell us a little bit about your resume and, you know, all the different jobs that you've had and what's neat about yours is you've had them all, like, at the same time, right? Yeah I

[00:08:10] Josh Francis: I have done a lot of stuff at the same time, which doesn't make you good at any of it, which is the problem, but you wear a lot of different hats and sometimes you forget to take off one and put the other one on, but.

I feel like I've had a very I've been very lucky in my career. So I started as a volunteer. Well, actually the interest in becoming a paramedic started when I was six. My brother and I were twins and born pretty early and he had some medical issues and would have seizures all the time.

And, I noted, I think it was about around when I was like six years old. Paramedics would come in and do their job and, you know, make everybody feel good and take care of my brother and stuff. And I just noted that I wanted to be that for somebody else someday. And that kind of stuck with me. And off and on I wanted to be a DNR guy and I wanted to be a cop and all those kind of things.

And in 1996 I got the job. the fortunate opportunity to join Mendon City Volunteer Fire Department and that's where I fell in love with the fireside as well. The rest is history. You know, I've worked for quite a few different agencies you know, volunteer agencies with Mendon and North Logan and I worked for Thiokol Fire Department, Ogden Fire, Roy Fire.

You know, and law enforcement side, Cache County Sheriff's Office, where I still am, Davis County, North Park Police Department, USU. Kind of sounds like I rove around a lot, right? Like I'm a bad employee or something, but It was just I just couldn't get enough of it, you know? Your passion drives you sometimes and Really enjoyed my career.

I flew for Air Med. from 2016 to just as of last year, which was a super cool job. That's a whole different aspect of public safety that kind of gets overlooked, but it's pretty amazing. It's a lot of fun. But that's also pretty stressful. And, you know, so, but I've had a really lucky career really.

And I feel very fortunate that I've been able to do everything I've been able to do. So, yeah,

[00:09:47] Brent Harding: well, I think that's pretty awesome. And You know, of course, you've promoted within all of those things, you know, here you are chief today, and I think that's pretty cool, too, that you know, not just a part of all these things, but, man, certainly excelling at all of them as well.

And now we're running a business on top of all that. Yeah. As well. Yeah.

[00:10:03] Josh Francis: And we're not, you know, we're running it into the ground, but it's running still, so it's good.

[00:10:07] Brent Harding: You know, I think something with that most at least firefighters share just cause of the schedule with the two days on and four days off.

Everybody's doing something on their four days off, whether it's another job or a little side business or whatever else. And I actually had a guy tell me on Friday, he's like, hey, when are you guys going to do a podcast on burnout? And I was like, well, you are in luck this Saturday. So, but I think that's a huge issue that a lot of people just don't know how to deal with.

Right. And sometimes we deal with it by taking on even more because that's what, you know, as long as we're busy, then we don't really have to deal with burnout. We can just distract ourselves with something else. And so, we invited Jeff here today to answer all of our questions and solve all of our problems.

So, right. So what have you seen Jeff for both your career, but also from the therapist side of things, like how does burnout start? How do we recognize it? What are some, I guess, warning signs or, you know, cause it seems like one of those things that you kind of kick that can down the road and then all of a sudden, like you're a zombie, right?

And there's gotta be some earlier. warning signs that you could do to prevent from getting to that stage.

[00:11:09] Jeff Denning: Right. So I really like, in fact, I don't talk too much about post traumatic stress. I don't, you notice I didn't say the D word, the disc word, because everybody has a little bit of symptoms on occasion through their career of having some post traumatic stress.

In fact, let me say, let me point out something. Firefighters in one study said that. Over the course of their career they'll experience seven, what is it, 700, critical incidents, if I'm getting that right to two as civilians. So over the course of a career, 700 critical incidents versus two, and that's 350 times more than any civilians that, that you're experiencing critical incidents.

So it really takes a toll. And at some point or another, there's going to be. some, some symptomology of post traumatic stress. Now, I don't want to say, I don't label people, I don't want to label people, nor do I want to be labeled as having post traumatic stress disorder. But what I like to call it is something that's called Emergency Responder Exhaustion Syndrome.

And everybody, at one point in their career or not, is going to have it if they're a first responder. And Emergency Responder Exhaustion Syndrome has... Four components. One is depression or sadness. Two, isolation or withdrawal. And then the last two are physical and emotional exhaustion. So if you combine all four of those, that's just burnout.

Now the D SS M, which is the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the latest one, it does not say. or include burnout, but the, the International Classification of Disorders, ICD, number eleven does include burnout and the three main components for that is excuse me, is, oh, exhaustion.

Which was already pointed out in the emergency responder exhaustion syndrome. Negativity and cynicism. That doesn't happen, right? No, never. And then having professional difficulties engaging or working. It's burnout. Burnout is very normal, and I think we can normalize that. saying, okay, yeah, why does somebody get burnout?

It's a hundred percent normal at one point or another, that exhaustion is going to happen at one point or another. Sadness is going to happen. It's because one you're human, but sometimes the sadness or depression, whether it's clinically diagnosed or just you're just feeling burnout or sad, it's because you're normal.

And part of it comes from what Viktor Frankl, who was held by the Nazis forever, kind of talked about as like, what's your meaning, the meaning in suffering? And the other part of it is there bio, is there biological changes that occur? So what happens is, you know, firefighters get in the job and they say, okay, here's what I want to do, I want to go save people, I want to help people.

And you get on the job and you... Go to the same things over and over. Let's say you go on a mental health situation and pretty soon you get really frustrated at that person. You're like, nah, I just don't want to go again to this person. And it starts to wear on you and exhaust you. A lot of people, especially if you've been in the job for a while, can identify with that. And then eventually... It wanes out and you find your happy place, but you can get really irritated at that because you're constantly exposed to the negativity.

And it's, you can't do the job without getting some of that on you to some degree. Now it doesn't mean it has to be huge or colossal, in fact, you probably can think of people who, are a little bit more prickly than others with the negative, negativism and cynicism, and you're like, okay, well that's just a, that's just burnout.

Yeah. What's cause

[00:14:43] Brent Harding: it seems like, I don't know, have you seen like burnout like accumulate? Because I think we all have that. The moments where it's like, dude, I'm done, but it's like, then you have a good four off and you're recharged, ready to go. But then it seems like there's almost like a deeper burnout where there is, it just feels like there is no amount of break or relaxation that gets me out of that rut, you know?

And I don't know if that's a different thing. Maybe that's not burnout. I don't know if you felt any of that before Josh, but man, that like, certainly for me, I just feel like. Sometimes I'm so busy on my four off trying to keep all the other plates spinning that by the time I get back to shift, like the shift is actually my break.

I'll go on any crisis you want me to go on. This is my chance to like turn everything else off and just come here and kind of hide from the world for a little bit, you know?

[00:15:30] Jeff Denning: I'd be interested to hear what Josh thinks.

[00:15:32] Josh Francis: Well, from what it sounds like to me, there's a difference between stress and burnout, right?

So, stress can be immediate from what's happening in front of you, but it's the amount of buildup of stress over time that leads to burnout, is what I would think. So what you described initially sounds like stress to me, but the accumulation of the stress with no real way to relieve it ends up turning into burnout with the exhaustion and the fatigue and the isolation and those kinds of things.

So if we don't deal with the stress, it turns into burnout. But with the whole peer stuff that we're doing right now, it's amazing because we can recognize that in somebody. And it used to be probably same for you. But back when we started in this business, it was like, Hey man, this is your job. You suck it up, push it down.

Push on because this is what you do. So you didn't talk about it, right? And so you'd be sad by yourself or you would question am I the right person for this job? Whereas now we tell people right off the bat. Hey this job can eat you alive I mean we want to talk about it every time we have a bad Something happen or we recognize something in somebody that doesn't seem right.

Let's address it and it's like going to a structure fire It's like how do you put the fire out if you don't recognize the house is on fire? Right. And so that's what we're doing now. The peer program, all of the stuff we're doing with therapy, therapists, and having to come right along with this, having to talk with us and podcast.

Amazing. I wish I had this when I was starting my career. Right. Yeah. So. I feel like the stress builds up over time, but we're doing such a better job of dealing with that stress, but that person still has to recognize it themselves. Everybody around you can say, hey, you seem a little stressed, are you okay?

Or, I feel like you're burned out, bro, what's going on? But if they don't recognize it themselves, they still can't be helped. So that's the part where we all need to band together. and bring in professionals to help us. Professionals that understand what we're going through. I was telling you earlier, I've been involved with so many processes of critical incident stress debriefings, and it wasn't called management then, it was debriefing.

And you'd go into these and you'd be surrounded in this big room, in this big circle of everybody that was involved, sometimes people that weren't involved, and it seemed like a blame game, it seemed like the... The psychologist or therapist that was there had no clue what we do for a living. And so I'd shut down immediately and I wouldn't even participate.

And so I had lost faith in this whole process until the peer team started doing their thing. And I thought, you know what, if I'm going to help our people be healthy, I need to go talk to a therapist just to see the process. And I found faith in it again because I got help through a process that I didn't even know I had.

So it was pretty amazing. So I'm 100% believer in the peer program and going to therapy and just, you know, when something's not right, say something, you know, if you see a need, take care of it. And that means if you're not doing well, I need to say something to you, you know, and talk to you about it and forward you to the people on the peer team that can help.

Yeah. So

[00:18:23] Brent Harding: I think that's a unique aspect of the fire service is where, you know, you think of a normal coworking relationship. And shift. You see 'em nine to five, it'll probably take you a lot longer to notice that maybe somebody's a little off. But when you're living with somebody for four, eight hours Yeah, right.

You're gonna see it much sooner know. And so, you know, if somebody's comes in a little different, that shift or you know, snaps or something they usually don't like, I think the crew picks up on it pretty quick, but it's do we just give that guy space or do we bring it up or, you know, do we poke the bear even more?

Which firefighters would never do. No, never . No. But.

[00:18:57] Jeff Denning: Let me have a comment on that if you don't mind. So you're talking about the stress, Brent, where you're saying, okay, just going to work is actually kind of alleviates some stress and Josh, I'm really glad that you brought up the stress and identifying that, but you can break down stress into two different categories.

Eustress, which is EU, which I think it's Greek or Latin for good stress and distress, which is horrible and awful. So even the good. Stress can be exhausting, and by good stress I mean, you know what, if you're looking for a new car you gotta buy, or you're having a baby, or you're moving, those, even if they're good, it's exhausting.

And so, and it's still kind of, it takes a toll on us a little bit. So there's, I think part of the biggest thing about identifying and kind of managing our own burnout is to realize, one. We're first, we're human. So if we have a sad day, that's 100% normal, but from a biochemical point of view, if you're constantly going if you're going on calls initially and you have an adrenaline, dump and it just, you know, you're getting all the different chemicals, you know, the epinephrine and norepinephrine and even hits of dopamine and serotonin stuff.

That's kind of what's been called to be in a flow state where you basically forget about everything else and you have to concentrate and those chemicals take effect in your brain and they affect your body. So it's like, Hey, life and death is on the line. I have to concentrate. I forget every single. And it feels good to be at work.

It feels good to have those calls. So we tend to want to continue to do those things that will help us feel that way, which is why we sometimes continue in the same career fields, even on our four days off. So. You got firefighters being firefighters elsewhere or flight medics or whatever just because it feels good and so we can become almost addicted.

I'm addicting addictions probably the wrong word, but we're as high performers We want to continue to do that and It feels good. And then we say, Oh, and this is my family. These are people who get it. They understand me. Sometimes my family might not understand me entirely because so called normal people, they don't get it.

They don't understand. So, you know, it's sometimes can just shift us a little bit where we might be having more attention to other career fields. Now, that's not to say it's not bad, that it's bad. Not at all. In fact, we, oftentimes we need to have another job because we're not getting paid enough anyway.

[00:21:29] Josh Francis: Ha. So. Wow, you nailed that right on the head. I was actually going to ask you the question, do you feel that stress is addicting? Because I feel like I'm addicted to being in stressful situations. And a part of it too is because I don't have to think about what I'm going to do because I'm trained, right?

And so when I go into a situation where it's a stressful environment and you've got to make decisions, it goes back to training. And I fall back on that and I don't have to think, I don't have to second guess myself, it just happens, right? And so I get addicted to that feeling and I feel like all the stuff I've done, and I've all done it close to the same time, I was going to ask you, do you think it's possible I was addicted to stress?

[00:22:07] Jeff Denning: It's not. We've got to be careful about using the word addiction and I don't know if he would even call it stress. I think that individuals who get into this profession have the chemical and psychological makeup to be drawn toward disaster. And so we think, oh you know what, I would rather run just like all the firefighters did in 9 11.

You run into the building. But what happens sometimes is if our expectations are one way and reality is not one way, What our expectation is. So we go on those calls, we're like, oh, cool, it's a crash. And we get there and it's like little kids then. Then that can psychologically give us a blindside because all that we hoped for is like, yes, a cool crash with sometimes nasty stuff.

And we're like, all right, I can handle it today. But if we're reality something in that, is not what we expected, then it has, it gives us the stress. Not the good stress, it gives us the bad stress. So, so it just it imbalances us. Just like, because I brought up 9 11, just like that Tuesday morning, all those workers going up into the World Trade Center.

They didn't think about killing themselves that day, but the fire got too hot and they jumped to their death. And so sometimes it can switch on a dime really immediately, really quick to say, Oh, that was not what I expected. Now it's a hundred percent different. Now to get more, pointed, I guess, on, on what you're talking about is the addiction to stress.

The chemical makeup just makes us feel alive. Because it's so important. We're dealing with life and death and so what happens is I can remember multiple times Going with my wife and her friend and her what her friend's husband So we're going out on a double date and there we're dinner talking and they're talking about boring dumb stuff that doesn't matter and I'm like Why can't we talk about something about life and death?

 So the boredom of life and the boredom of other people. We start to isolate because they're like, they're not normal. I'm normal. And guess what? I'd rather be with people who are more like me. Does that make more sense?

[00:24:09] Josh Francis: Absolutely. You just made me feel less crazy. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. I think

[00:24:15] Brent Harding: you articulated perfect for me too. Cause like you said, you get all the into that flow, right? You're headed to a call. And for me, it's like, I'll be behind on so many projects with my other business. And I know I got. People that are waiting on me or whatever, and that stresses me out.

But in the moment of a call, it's like, I know I'm doing the most important thing right now. Like, and I know if they saw exactly what I was doing at this moment, they wouldn't blame me for not working on their project. They'd be okay with me responding to this accident or helping this family, you know?

And so, then it's that's where I would put that addiction side is like, yeah, so I'm going to always go on calls because that's how I avoid, you know, the stuff that I'm behind on that I don't want to deal with. But man, being on shift and it's just and I don't know, I've been running my business for 10 years and it's a passion too, but, I just, something I've always loved about the fire department is like, I'm doing something that matters on the most fundamental level, like helping people with their marketing or helping people with these projects is awesome.

And I love being creative and doing those things. But at the end of the day, it's like fire department. That's like stuff that on the most basic level, like this. matters, you know, like, like if my business and that skill set went away tomorrow, the world's gonna carry on. But if the fire department, Logan City Fire Department went down tomorrow, that would be national news, you know, and that's pretty crazy to think about, you know, but anyway, so I, for me, that's, I think that's whether you call it avoidance or procrastination or whatever label like.

That's what I found at the fire department. It's hard to sometimes switch back to business mode on the four off because I love that feeling so much. And it was a good, pure escape doing good things that matter. And

[00:25:55] Jeff Denning: you need that. That's something that drives you. The passion to do that and the passion to be involved in, with a mental health and peer support and doing stuff like this podcast.

That also just enlivens you and gives you energy and that's what we need. But take it on the flip side. What about those firefighters who their work is their burden now, and that happens a lot. So after, after a few years and I've read some studies, but in my own view, I've seen, and I've said it for years, about seven years, you got some serious problems.

baggage. You know, your emotional trash bin is full and you've got to find a way to empty it. And so burnout can happen big time before then or after then, but about then some, it starts to happen. And it's the symptomology of some post traumatic stress that just starts to accumulate. And then it gets complex, cumulative.

Post traumatic stress. Not that everybody has it, but everybody has emotional or emergency responder exhaustion syndrome at one point in their career or another where you just feel burnt out. So if you're burnt out at work, how do you pull the reins on that? How do you try to say, okay, I need to help myself because here's the other thing that happens.

You go on these high speed calls all the time where nothing else matters and you're feeling in the flow while you get some dopamine and serotonin hits. during those calls, when you get so good at it, like you were explaining Josh, where you're like, okay, I can thrive in this area because I know what I'm doing.

Once you get so good at it, then you sometimes don't even get the shakes. Like the first time you're intubating somebody, you might have some shakes and your guts are changing a little bit and afterwards you might have a little bit of adrenaline shake at the end. But guess what? After the hundredth time, you have no emotion.

I remember. Having this situation that was pretty heinous happen. I came home and I told my wife, I said, I didn't shake. I didn't feel anything. I felt numb. And she goes, that's because you're broken, but it's not because you're broken. It's because you get used to the feelings of adrenaline. So when you're not in, in those seconds and in those moments, that matter.

Your dopamine, the neurotransmitter that makes us feel good, your dopamine, your serotonin, your endorphins deplete. They go straight down. And if they're down, then it just makes you feel numb. In psychology, it's called a flat affect, where you don't feel anymore. You're just, you're like, well I used to like doing this, now I don't.

Or I used to like doing something, but I just feel numb inside. I remember after coming home from Iraq, I told my wife, I said, I think I'm going to go skydiving, and a lot more than I had in the past. And I said, and then I'll get my certificate, or certificate, excuse me, so I can go be a trainer, just because I needed something to feel alive again.

So sometimes first responders engage in behaviors that makes them feel alive again, and sometimes those are negative. Whether they're getting on a motorcycle and going 180, or they're engaging in risky behaviors. Now, that could be risky sexual behaviors. It could be risky relational relationship behaviors.

It could be alcohol. It could even be drug use, something that says, okay, I need something to feel alive again. So when a first responder gets in trouble for behaviors, I would say it's because of, or at least in part because of the several years of doing the job. We cannot say, we cannot take the private life and the personal and the, professional life and say, well, they're separated now.

No, I can tell you, I can think of a handful of individuals who've gotten in trouble or lost their jobs or gotten an administrative leave. And I could very clearly say they're not dealing with a burnout. They're not dealing with the trauma. And that's what's caused the problem. So the behaviors.

Have well, well, the accumulation of trauma, which disturbing events. I think we use trauma too much. The accumulation of disturbing events have gotten so compiled and in that inner emotional trash bins that we decide, well, we just need to feel alive again. That's the burnout, right? Or the depression, the sadness, the withdrawal, the physical and emotional exhaustion.

Now, because I don't feel alive again, I need to do something that makes me feel alive again. What is that? You have either positive or negative behaviors. Whether you're going and sleeping with strippers, or, you know, doing other stuff that's risky and unhealthy, it's because it makes you feel alive.

Wow. So, would you say

[00:30:27] Brent Harding: that, you know, that it almost makes me feel like I'm in like a pre emptive state? Wait

[00:30:31] Jeff Denning: a minute, wait a minute, you don't have to talk about

sleeping with,

[00:30:33] Brent Harding: Being a prostitute or anything. Don't say anything right now. We'll cut that, Vegas stays in Vegas. Sometimes. But, so if you're in the spot, like, where I feel like I'm right now, where work at the fire department is my stimulant or whatever, that's, but, from what I gather from what you're saying, if you get, like, over time, that's going to get to point where that stops, like you stop finding the flow because you're just not stimulated by that anymore.

And then that's a dangerous spot to be, right? Like if you've, and whatever else is going on in your life, and then, you know, you're out of the flow at work because you've done it so much, you're numb, well, that's a bad place to be because you're desperately going to seek somewhere else, right? Am I understanding that

[00:31:07] Jeff Denning: correctly?

Yes, potentially. Now it's not per se the numbness because sometimes training can get so good and experience can get so good that if we're doing something like, hey, we're on scene and we're used to going to scenes, it's mass chaos and we take control and it's A, B, C and D. And and we can do that.

And we can do that in, in, in a very good way that we're used to it. We need to, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but if we start to feel completely burnt out. We need to find something that gives us energy. And part of that might not be the job. Because after a while, when it, when the energy that drove us into the job, after a while it might deplete us.

And so we have to find something else that we need to focus on to help us to find that passion. And it's

It's not about just finding pseudo passion It's not about finding something that's like, gives us a fix. It's finding something about giving us purpose, giving us meaning, making us feel good. Now, the body is very tightly connected to how we think and vice versa. So, I would say the number one thing to help with avoiding burnout is sleep.

Here's the problem with firefighters. If you're at a busy station and you're not getting sleep, And then on your four pack, you're going to work another fire job? What's your sleep like? Or, what's your sleep like on your four pack? You, the number one thing is you've got to monitor and give time for your sleep.

You need seven to nine hours according to the studies. You've got to focus on your sleep. And lots of times people are like, eh, I can survive on less.

[00:32:46] Josh Francis: I used to say you can sleep when you're dead, which quickly would add up to that. Yeah. And I started keeping track of my sleep on my Apple watch and it was depressing because I never got seven hours.

It was in my in the rapid REM, is that what it is? That could, that's the most important part of sleep cycle, right? Yes. It was very minuscule. So I was tossing and turning. So, I mean, I have to use Ambien to go to sleep because I can't shut my mind off. But, am I really restful at that point? I'm not, right?

Right. Because it's just, yeah, I may be still, but my mind is still going crazy. And sleep is probably the biggest downfall for me in the recovery process of all of it. I can't sleep, and I don't know exactly why I've been like that for a long time. Because there's

[00:33:28] Jeff Denning: been a lot of years where you're... This is the rough thing that I've learned about firefighters.

My grandpa was a firefighter. Of course, it was back in the days when they had different than, they didn't do 48s or whatever but when you're a light sleeper, or you're getting tones, or if the tones are going off, even though you don't have to go, maybe it's, You know, and you're used to that and you have to get used to that.

Then you become a light sleeper at home. And then sometimes if there's additional worry or additional stress, then you're not sleeping well. And then, you know, after 20 years and you retire, guess what? It's still going to be somewhat similar. It's hard to shut it off. Yeah.

[00:34:01] Josh Francis: That explains a lot, because I do, I mean I don't go on every call these guys go on, but I listen to every single call that goes out all night long because it's my job, right?

So, I can see how that would be hard for my body to get used to on my four days off. I didn't even put that

[00:34:14] Jeff Denning: together. Well, part of it is we don't make sleep a priority. No. Because the other part is, well, why am I not making sleep a priority? Because it's not that important. I'd rather look at my phone or whatever's like that.

[00:34:23] Brent Harding: I thought that's why God invented coffee and Red Bull. Red Bull? You mean Monster?

[00:34:27] Jeff Denning: Yeah. Here's the thing about all that stuff if you're drinking caffeine, after noon or after 1. 00 PM on your days off, actually, whatever the case may be, I wouldn't do it at work either. Then, you've got to be really careful, because if you're drinking later, it's, caffeine has a half life, it's going to keep you awake.

The other thing is, if you're drinking coffee first thing in the morning because you feel tired, it's because you're not getting enough sleep before. Now, is caffeine needed sometimes? Heck yeah, absolutely. But you gotta be careful of the caffeine intake. Caffeine, nicotine they will cause massive sleep issues.

And actually, interestingly, caffeine and nicotine addictions are mentioned in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders. Like, that's interesting. I drink two

[00:35:09] Josh Francis: or three Monsters a day. I like

[00:35:11] Brent Harding: the taste. I'm not addicted, I just like the taste. Yeah. That's all it is. I usually wash down my coffee with a monster.

Yeah, I take my Adderall with my monster. Oh, wow. So I want to point out something that you said, Jeff, as far as you know, finding something that gives you energy and, you know, finding that purpose or finding something that's not fire to help and a healthy thing that gives you energy, not one of the negative behaviors.

But I. I think the other side of that too is also getting rid of something on your plate, right? I read something the other day that it's like the work life balance thing is such a terrible thing to try to go after because it's just impossible unless you're willing to let go of some things. Like you can't just keep piling stuff on your plate and expecting to balance that.

Like that's going to be a miserable way to live, but it's so hard to let go of things. Right. And I kind of want to dig into your decision to leave airman because that I know that wasn't easy and that was in your, it feels like your whole life. You've. added things to the plate and doing all these different jobs and it's been, you know, having all the cool roles, but then to take the first step into actually letting go, what was that like?

How did you build up to that decision? What's it been like? What we're opposed to almost a year now?

[00:36:19] Josh Francis: Yeah. September 15th was my last flight shift.

[00:36:22] Brent Harding: So what's it, I mean, how's that felt letting go of something? How did that affect your balance? And I don't know, just kind of walk us through how you made that decision and how much time

[00:36:30] Josh Francis: we got.

Yeah, here we go. We're fine. Well, I might need some help with this. So, so I'll give you the catalyst of what caused me to make the decision and why I decided that was what I had to let go. I had just got done with the rock spring shift up obviously up in rock springs with air med. I've been gone for a couple of days and then I was going to be going immediately into some doing some training for my, you know, trauma llama tactical.

And my son, Jack, he's 14, well, he was 14, he's 15 now, but at the time, he said something really profound to me. That kid's brain man it's incredible, but he just said, Hey dad, you're never here. You know, I'd really like to have you here. And he said something about my oldest son, Logan. He was eight, he was 19 now, but was 18 at the time.

He says, Hey, Logan's, he's no longer a kid, you know, he's 18. You missed all of that. I don't want you to miss the last parts of me being a kid. And not exactly in those words, but that was his meaning. And it was like, Oh my gosh, that's what finally. Had me take a look at it, and I don't know why it took that, but for my kid to tell me that, something's not right.

You know, obviously my wife has told me, hey man, you're too busy, you gotta slow down. But, I was, I think I was involved with that, you know, passion, that drive, and it was, I kept thinking, I'm doing this for my family. But I don't think I was, I think I was doing it for me. You know, the more we talk, the more I feel selfish, but I was always thinking, man, I'm, I gotta make the money.

I've gotta, I've gotta be, you know, everything I can be. So my kids have everything they need. There's no wants or anything like that. But what it really comes down to from what I'm realizing now is I was probably pretty addicted to that stress response and being in the moment, right? Cause I'm, I live my life in moments.

It's, I don't know, hypervigilant is probably a good word for a lot of the stuff I do too. I mean, it's like, you know, as well as I do, you go. to a restaurant, you sit with your back against the wall so you can see the door, right? You never sit with your back to a door, stuff like that. But it's those kinds of things over time that build up and I'm like I probably should start figuring out how to be normal because I'm close to retirement.

My whole identity, my whole life has revolved around the fire service, being a law enforcement officer. And being a flight paramedic and my self value was based on that. It's like, I'm not a good person unless I do these things. It made me feel great. That gave me that feedback that I'm doing a good job that, that these people need me.

Right. And so when my kid told me that, Jack was like, Hey, he needs me. And so. I made the very difficult decision to quit a job that I absolutely loved. Flying with AirMed was an incredible experience. The people there are amazing. I got to do things that I never imagined I'd get to do. And let's put it this way, flying on helicopters are just cool.

I mean, you know that. They're amazing. And the stress of being in flight on a helicopter. I mean, the whole time you're just buzzing with adrenaline. Even if you're just going to a standard flight or you're just rotating aircraft to the base to, you know, do some maintenance or whatever. It was an incredible feeling, because helicopters are trying to kill you every second you're in them.

There's nothing natural about that. So, I mean, it's a pretty cool feeling. I love it. The sound, the smell of the jet fuel, you know, Jet A's got a cool smell that I will never forget. I hope they make a cologne someday that's Jet A. I would buy it for sure. But to give that up was super hard. And that was the time I decided I need to be the father that I should have been.

For the last 18 years. And so, I gave my resignation notice to my supervisor, which was, it literally took me two months to write and I would start writing it and then I'd stop. And I was like, I can't do this. I can't. And I kept saying, I need the money. I can't, I need the money. And so I was blaming it on other things, but what it really was my you know, it was good for me to feel that way.

And so, since I've left AirMed and I've kind of lightened my load, I still work for Cache County Sheriff's Office on the SWAT team, but, you know, those are trainings and SWAT responses. I'm not doing that every day. So that's a pretty light workload there. And trauma llama obviously isn't an everyday thing and it is a passion of ours.

And so I really still enjoy doing that. I couldn't give that up. So Air Med was the victim here for me and it's like this isn't something I have to do. So I I let go of it and it was super, super hard for me. I don't think I've ever been, let's say clinically depressed, but I went through a period of time where I was super sad.

Every time I'd hear a helicopter. I'd run outta my house to see who it was or what they were doing and you know, following aired on Instagram, it just killed me to see all the cool stuff they were doing. And I wasn't part of it anymore. But what I did, I looked back and I could see, you know, my kid right there, Jack and Logan and my wife.

I was actually spending way more time at home and all of a sudden, I noticed my stress load started to relieve a little bit. And I was like, I being at home. It's kind of cool. And so I started doing stuff that, you know, around the house. I mean, I was always busy. I'm the kind of guy that feels guilty if I'm just sitting.

Like, right now, I kind of feel guilty because I'm not, you know, we're talking. I'm not the kind of guy that can just sit down and relax. I've never been able to do that. I don't think a lot of first responders are that way. Yeah. So, so I've always, I'm always super, super busy. But now I'm doing projects around the house I've put off forever and ever.

Because I didn't have time to do it, you know. And I've actually found some enjoyment in that. And just recently spent a week and a half in the U. N. with no phone contact and all that kind of stuff. I really enjoyed that. I caught fish. I went riding in my Razor. You spent time with my family. It was like, wow, I might even be able to be retired someday.

But I think the self identity part of it is still hard for me because, you know, I was somebody, right. I was important to the organization. They needed me. I don't, you know, I used to think my family doesn't really need me, you know, I'm just, I provide a paycheck and I'm, yeah, I'm some emotional support for them sometimes, but they don't really need me.

They can get along without me, but I'm realizing now that's not the truth. So,

[00:41:54] Brent Harding: yeah. Well, and I think the hard part sometimes is the money, right? Like, because we use that as like, you know, I can't be there all the time, but man, my kids can buy nice things. And so I'm here doing important work that matters and my kids can buy all the games and trips or whatever they want to do.

And so it's just like that impossible conundrum of being a provider and being a dad, like. They just bash heads all the time, like how do you, I don't know, but I think that's, it's pretty admirable to be able to set that aside and recognize, with your kid and make that decision and be able to stick with it and now seeing a lot of the benefits I think that's pretty awesome.

[00:42:29] Josh Francis: Don't get me wrong, I'd go back in a heartbeat but I am definitely trying to suppress that feeling and I eventually caught up, well, I can't say that because I'm still living off my air med budget, but cause you end up purchasing things, right? That you had the money for before.

Now it's been super tight, but I'm, I think I'm happier, right? As much as I love flying and being with those people and doing what I did, I think I'm happier now. So I don't know. Is that something weird? No,

[00:42:53] Jeff Denning: you, no, you hit everything that just makes complete sense and I'm sure the listeners will feel the same way.

One of the, one of the interesting things that, well, you said a lot of really interesting things, but one of the things is that that identity and we tend to identify ourselves so much with the profession, it, which is way different than so called normal people. Okay. We identify ourselves so much.

It's one of the reasons that retirement can be very

[00:43:19] Josh Francis: difficult. We've seen that in our department recently. Yeah.

[00:43:22] Jeff Denning: With people. Yes. Yeah. People when you retire it's diff, it's different. It's difficult because you're not used to doing the thing that you have your identity. You're not used to being with the people.

And so it can kind of make you unbalanced a little bit. So when you pull back from Air Med, for instance, you know, you're like, Hey, that's. part of me. That's part of what makes me feel good. Just like when you prepare yourself for retirement, it's like you need to have something, a passion, something that interests you, whatever it is, that'll help you wake up in the morning.

Yeah. So you have a purpose and a reason to wake up. That's super important. One of the other things about burnout is we have some unrealistic expectations on ourselves that we put that

[00:44:05] Josh Francis: I was going to ask you about expectations because I feel like that's Part of the burnout process, right? Let's say we go on a call, a pediatric call, let's say, cause those are the ones that always bother us the most is the kid calls.

And you go and you do everything you can. And at the end of the call, you know, rather the kid lives or dies you still don't feel like your expectations for your performance and for what happened were always higher than actual reality, but maybe you did the best that could possibly be done, but our expectations are so much higher for ourselves.

We leave those calls feeling like, oh man, you know, maybe I shouldn't be doing this anymore. And it seems like that happens on almost every one of those bad calls, right? You have those expectations of your performance and it doesn't go exactly as planned. And it's hard to it's hard to feel like you did something good.

Yeah. Is

[00:44:50] Jeff Denning: that weird too? No. I think you're 100% right. I'm not as weird as you thought. I think

[00:44:53] Brent Harding: you have, I think you have expectations for off shift too, right? We have these super high expectations for ourselves on shift and doing our job. And then. You expect yourself to be a good father and husband and it's just like, and you start bringing on all of these things and then you can't, you just can't do it all, right?

And so that's where I think choosing to let go of something has to be part of this process. If you're going to get rid of burnout, you can't keep expecting to do all of this stuff and maintain.

[00:45:20] Jeff Denning: I'm so glad you brought that up again a second time, Brent, because, you know, you need to say no. There has to, and it's very difficult for a lot of us to say no, because one, if people are coming to us and asking us to do things that makes us feel good, it's like, okay, we'll do it.

Or people just ask you to do something, you're like, okay, I'll do it. Your plate gets really full and then stuff starts to fall off your plate because you can't do multiple things good at once.

[00:45:44] Josh Francis: And you hit that. Oh gosh, I was gonna, I was gonna say that. I'm glad you brought that up. Cause I, the more you do, it feels like the more you drop, like you're the go to guy, but the more you're juggling, it's just like, all of a sudden you start dropping everything and you're no longer able to perform like you want it to.

And people not saying that they won't come and ask you, but it's like, obviously there's something wrong. Cause you aren't performing at the level you used to and dropping the ball happens. And that's part of being so busy is, and it makes you feel horrible. Right. And so

[00:46:13] Jeff Denning: that's that personal. Self talk, that you're saying, well, gosh, now I'm not good enough, now I can't do this, and man, we destroy ourselves.

Yeah. Part of it is just saying, basking in the things that we like and saying, you know what, this is life. And even if I'm feeling bad or having a bad day or a bad call, it's like, okay, it's okay. I can feel that way. But I'll tell you what if I wanted to get something done and I'm a leader in an organization, I'm going to go to somebody who's already busy because you know, they're going to get stuff done, which is interesting.

Yeah. It's kind of a, that interesting paradox is somebody who doesn't do anything ever, and I'm not talking about fire service, right? I'm just talking about somebody who is completely. Checked out and lazy, they might not get stuff done. So I'm going to go to the person who's not that way, who's a driver to, to get them done and just putting more on their plates.

Yeah. And they don't say

[00:47:00] Josh Francis: no. Correct.

[00:47:01] Jeff Denning: Well, and that's like every firefighter because every firefighter has a second job. Pretty much everyone that I know of.

[00:47:06] Brent Harding: Yeah, they did a study with students to see how different students performed. The ones that had full time jobs, part time jobs and no jobs, the ones that were able to focus on school full time and the data was overwhelming that the students with full time jobs were better students.

And I think it just comes back to, cause when you have to be organized with your time and you know, they just did better at school, the ones that could only focus on school, they had all this wiggle room and procrastination was easier to take place and it was just interesting, but. But it's like, I don't know, at the same time you feel guilty because it's like, well, just because they're going to perform better, do we really put one more thing on this guy or do we, do I accept one more thing on my plate just because I know I can, you know, do it better than the next guy or I know it'll get done if I do it.

But it's one thing to I just. That jumped out to me while you're telling your story, Josh, is that, you know, come back to finding that source of energy is it seems like you found it with your family, right? Like whatever energy you were getting from air med, it was you know, you filled that gap with now, man, I'm doing something that really matters.

to Jack that no one else can do. No one else can be in this spot and this razor and the UN is right now with Jack that could make more of an impact on him than you can. And that has to feel pretty good too. Right. Yeah.

[00:48:20] Josh Francis: Recognizing that was, you know, that's a source of happiness for me and I can drink from that well and be happy as well was an amazing feeling.

And I have to say, I have been super blessed throughout my entire career because my wife understands what I do. She's a dispatcher. She's been doing it as long as I have. So she knows exactly what I'm going on. She knows what I'm talking about. She knows the lingo. She, you know, she deals with officers. She deals with you know, fire.

So when I've had a bad call, she knows exactly what's going on. Cause she probably experienced the exact same call. on a different level. So she's been my rock and I not a lot of people have that in their life. So Sandy, if you're listening, I love you. Thank you.

[00:48:59] Brent Harding: I know you're making the rest of us.

[00:49:00] Jeff Denning: Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. My wife won't listen to this. She hasn't even read my books. So I'm like, well, I'll read your book.

[00:49:05] Brent Harding: Maybe just as we, we wrap up here, I'd love to, to get an insight from each of you on something we can do if you recognize burnout in somebody else, you know, like, and so I think it's important. We've talked a lot about recognizing yourself, some steps to take and finding a new source of energy, letting go of some things, letting go of some terrible expectations you have for yourself or some good steps.

But now let's say somebody on your crew or somebody close to you, you're starting to tell they're burned out. What are some things you can do to help them?

[00:49:32] Josh Francis: We can start with you. You're the professional.

[00:49:34] Jeff Denning: That makes you sound smart. I don't feel that way at all. But you know, 50 years of experience and that's really it.

But here, a couple of the things that come to mind. One is if we're talking about energy, which is really the antithesis of burnout, we need to understand, okay, if you look at the mitochondria in the cell, that's what needs us to, that's what helps us get energy. So we need to. Make sure we get rest. We need to exercise on a regular basis.

That can help produce energy. We need to eat things that are going to help us. Not to be, you know, a food Nazi, but we do need to make sure that if we're underweight or overweight, It will, it can mess up our energy. But also just movement and exercise and resistance can help us. But not only that, we need work.

We 100% need something to do. And sometimes if there's a, if there's people firefighters off on a four pack and there's nothing to do, that's a problem. We need people, and then we need to really understand that purpose and that meaning. There's something else, a greater purpose. for the reason that we're suffering.

Now if we're suffering just to suffer, that's masochism. We don't, or sadism, whatever. We don't want to just suffer, remove that suffering. But on the other hand, it's like, we need to understand, well, how can I help others? Or how can I help myself? Or what is my belief in that thing that causes that distress?

We need to try to remove that barrier. So As I would be seeing something like that in a friend, one of the things that I might ask them the first and foremost is, What are you doing for you? Self care. Self care. And if people can't make a list, and honestly it's very difficult to make a list, I would say, Well, what are you doing for you?

Okay. If you had, if you have five minutes, what do you do? If you had 15 minutes or half an hour, what do you do? You better create a list, write down the things that will make you happy, whether it's listening to a song or doing so. If you have a half a day or a half an hour or two or three hours, what do you do for you to give you energy?

The science has shown that social media. A half an hour of social media or a half an hour of television will deplete your energy. Oh, I believe it a hundred percent. And I think with social media it can get even worse because then we're comparing each other and we're looking at something else and we, and the algorithms are created in such a way that we keep scrolling.

And then pretty much we just, we would get more energy from literally staring at a wall because we have to think about. So trying to write... What are you doing on a daily basis to help yourself? I would say write, read and educate. The science behind meditation and prayer is phenomenal. But it's also kind of understanding...

I'm like, okay, why did I have to deal with this situation and why did I have to, let me just say this really fast. So, Russell M. Nelson, president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, also developed the heart. He made breakthrough stuff with the heart. Before that happened, he he helped with a family who's.

A heart deficiency in a little kid that died and I think he operated on another kid and then he operated on their daughter, a little child. And he and she died. He said he went home and he said he cried all night to his wife. He said, I'm never going to do anything again. a surgeon.

It was too emotionally impactful for him to see the pain of this family that they lost three of their kids and that his work or action or inaction whatever he did to that, for that little girl and that she died. He literally cried all night. He said his wife comforted him. five o'clock in the morning, she finally said something to him that said something to the fact of, okay, get back in there and work and develop something.

Then that was the impetus that allowed him to develop something to the heart where he's, you know, a world renowned heart surgeon because he created something that helped him to help others purpose. There was purpose in this suffering. And honestly, a lot of Sometimes we miss that out. We just feel like, gosh, oh we feel sad.

We feel depressed. We've, we wanted to withdraw on ice or like why there is purpose in the suffering. And sometimes like the Stoics say, the obstacle is the way. So part of it is just, let's view things a little bit differently. Whatever our obstacle is, we need to view it a little bit differently. And then we can live our life as if we're living at a second time and not messing up this time.

We're just going through and saying, okay, this is what I'm going to do now.

[00:54:05] Josh Francis: You said that perfectly. I have to tell you that when I went to a therapist, that was exactly what I needed to focus on was the purpose right in that tragedy that I was. That I had all of a sudden focused on that. I had no idea was really bogging me down.

And I had to find purpose in that tragedy. And my therapist helped me do that. And it was amazing how much that helped me. Like seriously, it was incredible. So I've been in

[00:54:29] Brent Harding: video production for over a decade now. And so I've tried to use that as like, okay, if this was a movie right now of my life.

What would the character do, you know, with this moment, right? And in the movies, like, of course they're not going to give up in this moment or they're not, they didn't come this far to only come this far. It's like that would be like in the, with the surgeon story, you know, it's like, of course that's what would happen in the movie.

He uses that as the origin story to fuel this great thing. And so sometimes I try to step back and do that same thing. It's hard, like it's way easier said than done. But if you can at least start that shift, I think that's great tool and sometimes helping somebody else. I remember, my wife, so my wife's a nurse in the ER.

So I'm, you know, also lucky to have somebody that gets it a little bit. But I remember she came home one day and was just totally burnt out, you know, exhausted. And just feeling like I can't even remember the exact circumstance, but she's describing all these things to me that she just felt like she was failing.

And it was much easier for me to do it for her than it is for me to do it for myself. But I just said, here's what I see. I see a working mom who is just. up all night long, taking care of sick people, got home, made breakfast for everybody and is killing it, you know, with, and just you're reading it and just doing all of these things like that's pretty awesome.

Like, you know, and, but in her mind she was just behind on everything and so that was going to be my. My little thing that again, it's so much easier said than done, but I think sometimes people that are burned out more than because her situation didn't change. I didn't relieve her of having to do night shifts or the fact that I was now going on shift and was about to dump the three kids on her, right.

Is, but instead just allowing her to be seen. Like I see you and I see what you're doing and here's what I see. That's all she needed for that moment. to feel a little less burned out. Well, at least somebody knows what I'm going through. My burden is the same. Everything's the same, but at least I'm seen.

And, and I know in return you know, when that's given to me, it just seems like those are the moments where I feel the lightest. Nothing changed, but man, at least this guy knows what I'm going through fully. There's no secrets here, and he gets it, and that has gone a long way for me.

[00:56:42] Jeff Denning: That's awesome.

You know, one of the things that I might do from a friend or a peer, if I'm having some kind of peer support interaction and I see somebody struggling, I might ask them, Hey, if one of your buddies were in the same exact situation that you're in, what advice would you give to them? Or, you know, and then just be quiet and listen.

Or, what would you tell them? Because too often, we're not compassionate enough on ourselves. Or we don't have the same rules for ourselves that we would for others. Well, I'd tell him he needs to go talk to a therapist. Or, I'd tell him it's okay and... But no, we don't ever say that to ourselves. Because when we talk to ourselves, because everybody does it, we're usually telling something that's wrong.

And then we believe it because we're the one saying it.

[00:57:23] Josh Francis: Wow. That was profound. I don't even know what else to say. Honestly. Because the more you talk, the more I'm like, I probably need to go see Jeff after this. Oh. Well,

[00:57:33] Brent Harding: and I think it's you know, I just think too, like, through the different leaders I've had in my life from the fire department too, it's like those moments where, again, they're not changing anything about my life, but, you know, the moments where somebody says something like, man, You're doing a ton and we recognize it.

And coming from admin, you know, like, man, that has a huge impact. And so where I think sometimes as the leader, even of our, the leader of our own family is that mom or dad, like you feel like you got to fix everything. And I'm sure admin feels the same way. Like, oh, maybe this crew is unhappy or is going through a lot.

I got to go fix it. Sometimes I think fixing it isn't always the answer. It's just let them know they're seen. I love that. And. It's been guys like Chief Francis and I had a call years ago, but it was Chief Brady Hanson and, you know, it's just some of these statements that I know they don't even remember saying, but in that moment, man, it helped me be seen and just helped validate what I was going through.

And I still had to get through it all by myself, but just knowing that they saw where I was.

[00:58:30] Jeff Denning: Napoleon knew the power of a ribbon. He honored the people in his military, like with ribbons. And it's not that we need to, constantly honor that power. Honor individuals with awards, but we need to verbalize those things that you're saying. We need to acknowledge that we see them. And sometimes it's, we need to be vulnerable ourselves to say, you know what, I remember I had a really rough call several years ago that bothered me for some time.

I don't know if that same call is doing the same thing to you now or. If you've had other calls, you know, it allows an atmosphere where they can talk and you acknowledge that you're seeing challenges in them and you just open it up. But the power of a ribbon says, Hey, guess what? I'm going to do a buddy check.

So I'm just going to, if I'm thinking of somebody, I randomly text them, Hey, buddy check, Hey, just thinking about you. There's power in that. Oh yeah, absolutely. There's power in putting your arm around somebody and saying, Hey, you know what? Thanks for doing what you're doing. I see it. Because too often we don't get those positive reinforcements.

We often, we talk bad about ourselves or we have this expectation of being a perfect superhero to save every single person and we can't. It's just, that's not the way life is. And so if somebody, if you and me, we just go out of our way to say and do something nice, it might be a huge difference.

And it very well could. I'll tell you of a story. A guy I know, he stepped on a I U D or a mine or whatever it was, over in Afghanistan and lost both of his legs in his good arm. And I remember I called him, I wanted to get together and recognize him at this speech I was giving. And I wanted to give him an award.

You know, I just want to like, Hey, I just wanna recognize you. It was a Memorial Day or a Veteran's Day event. And I said, Hey, John, are you around? And. He said, no, I'm back at Walter Reed Hospital for another surgery. And we just chatted for a little while. And I said, Hey man, I just want you to know I love you, man.

And I could hear him crying. And he said, you know, I really needed that today. I was wondering if it was worth it anymore. And I'll tell you, we can't see. The amputees. We don't see the emotional amputations that are all around us. We need people to say, hey, I care about you, I love you, I'm just thinking of you.

We need to do that. We need to do that for each other. That'll change people, and it'll change, it'll get us out of our own discomfort. If we're feeling blue, There's an old poem that says, If you're blue, find something to do for someone who is sadder than you. Just go find somebody to be nice to.

And it doesn't have to be big.

[01:00:59] Josh Francis: Sometimes it's the smallest of things, right? That you don't think about twice.

[01:01:02] Jeff Denning: I mean, like, you guys could compliment my nice hairline.

[01:01:05] Josh Francis: It's incredible.

[01:01:06] Brent Harding: I've been waiting for the right moment

[01:01:07] Jeff Denning: to

[01:01:09] Josh Francis: So, Jeff, do you remember back, I think it was around 20, 2014, 2013, there started to be quite a bit of criticism on law enforcement.

Started seeing the big movement where you know, they were criticizing officer involved shootings and the demographics that were involved and things like that. And it started to get pretty rough, like to the point where you felt like, why am I doing this job? Why do I mean, cause I was both firefighter and a law enforcement officer and it's like, I put on one uniform, I'm a different person than I was when I was wearing the other uniform.

Right. But I'm still the same person inside. People see me completely different. But what made a huge difference for me was someone coming up to me and just saying, I see you, thank you for what you're doing in this difficult time. And you know, I, it's like, I brought me to tears right in front of them.

It's like, I'm, you know, I'm in a uniform. I shouldn't be crying in front of somebody. But when they said that, it was like, it meant something to me, you know, cause I was stressed. Everybody was stressed during those times and it hasn't gotten much better, but it has gotten better. But there was also a movement on Instagram.

That was a hashtag. I see you. I don't know if you've ever saw those but it was incredible. The message that it did it, that they sent and total strangers on even just Instagram, which I know social media is good and bad, but for the most part, bad. But that meant something to me. And so, you know, even if it's someone you don't know it means something, but recognizing them.

So, as admin, I think that's important. And we talk about that in our administrative meetings. It's like, hey, we gotta make sure our people know how much we appreciate them. But it's easier said than done, right? I mean, it's, you go to the station and, you know, you're there to grab the mail and give staff meeting minutes.

And you know, you're kind of just BSing with the guys. And sometimes it's hard to remember to say, hey, I appreciate the effort you guys put forth on that last call. You know, because, you know, you're in the mode of. Yes. And the stuff. But when it comes from someone, an admin, I can see, you know, how important that is.

So I will pledge to do a better job, not that I've done a bad job, but I, you know, I think it means a lot. I appreciate that. And I

[01:03:01] Brent Harding: think, you know, it even goes just the, that time spent with the guys is whether you don't have to say anything specific or not, but just being back amongst the crews. I know that just means a lot to everybody.

And so that even if you do nothing other than BS, and I think that's a healthy thing.

But I think it's cool that we circled all the way back to thank you for your service. Yeah. That is another way of saying, I see you, right? And I think cause it can be awkward, right? to you don't want to brand yourself as the hero or somebody that deserves that spotlight. But I think in those moments, it is okay to allow yourself to be seen.

And that's the flip side is us reaching out letting people know we see them and that we recognize what they're doing. But can you also put yourself in a state where you allow yourself to be seen? Can you be willing to share things with your crew so that they can see you? And, you know, maybe they want to, but because you're, if you're so closed off on certain parts of your life, of course, they're, that's hard.

And how do you see somebody that those emotional amputees, like that's not, you know, a physical thing that you can see all the time. And so, just as we wrap up, man, this has been so awesome. Can we go on for hours? But I only have so much storage space on these SD cards. So, fair enough. But I really appreciate both of you guys being here today.

I think we probably should have done this episode very beginning. I just think everybody has, circled the waters or circled this topic in their career and in multiple ways. And so I'm, I really think this episode is going to do a lot of good for a lot of guys and appreciate you both being here.

And as always, we try to just end with a shout out to. Anybody listening, this is a reminder that the peer team is here to help in any way we can. The website and everything is if you need to get help privately, you don't want people to know there's a way to do that. But of course, any member of the peer team and even admin wants to help just kidding, but but I just hope you'd reach out.

And there's lots of people anxious to help you get to the spot in life that you want to be so you can start getting that happiness and that energy. And So please reach out. Thank you both for being here. We'll catch you on the next one. Okay. Thanks.

[01:04:59] Josh Francis: Thanks, Brent.